付曉東(以下簡(jiǎn)稱 “付”)：我在觀察新時(shí)代里文人畫(huà)畫(huà)的狀況，或者說(shuō)當(dāng)代的知識(shí)分子畫(huà)畫(huà)跟職業(yè)畫(huà)家有什么不同，是一個(gè)有意思的現(xiàn)象，可能反而能看清職業(yè)藝術(shù)家的處境。文人和文人畫(huà)，技術(shù)和手法都已經(jīng)飽和了,再則怎么花樣翻新，都不能滿足藝術(shù)品鑒的需求了。

Fu: I am observing the state of literati painting in the new era, or how the contemporary intellectual’s paintings are different from professional painters. It is an interesting phenomenon, which may help us see the situation of professional artists clearly. Literati and literati painting as well as the techniques and skills are saturated, and no matter how they are refurbished, they cannot meet the needs of art appreciation.

王霖(以下簡(jiǎn)稱 “王”)：畫(huà)畫(huà)的最終極狀態(tài),其實(shí)應(yīng)該就是一個(gè)用畫(huà)筆當(dāng)思考工具的狀態(tài)。而且勢(shì)必要對(duì)趣昧之外的更大問(wèn)題有深度的關(guān)注,然后他的藝術(shù)才會(huì)突破一般藝術(shù)家。

Wang: The painting should actually be a state of using a brush as a tool for thinking. And it is bound to have a in-depth attention to the larger issues beyond taste, which makes the art tower over ordinary artists.

付：于是從畫(huà)的審美，發(fā)展到對(duì)人的審美上來(lái)了。

Fu: So it evolved from the aesthetic of paintings to the aesthetic of people.

王：以前只以為畫(huà)畫(huà)的最高理想就是技術(shù)和趣味的完美匹配,但其實(shí)沒(méi)有從藝術(shù)這個(gè)殼里突破出來(lái),就永遠(yuǎn)不可能回望自身的技術(shù)和趣味,并對(duì)這兩者作出恰當(dāng)?shù)睦斫夂团?也就無(wú)法認(rèn)識(shí)到什么樣的匹配才是完美的，而這個(gè)時(shí)候，匹配的完美，恰恰成副產(chǎn)品了，它不再是藝術(shù)的終極目標(biāo)。

Wang: I used to think that the highest ideal of painting is a perfect match between technique and taste. But in fact, without breakthrough out of the art, it will never be possible to look back at the technique and taste, and to have a proper understanding and criticism of the both. Then it is impossible to recognize how to match perfectly. Moreover, the perfect match is just a by-product which is no longer the ultimate goal of art.

付：說(shuō)得好,畫(huà)也不能完全在藝術(shù)史技術(shù)傳承和翻花的小細(xì)節(jié)上,而是要有更大的范式上的改變,問(wèn)題意識(shí)和審美觀念上的自然而然的變化。真的走到最后,發(fā)現(xiàn)以前覺(jué)得要緊的問(wèn)題,可能都并不是真正要緊的，語(yǔ)言突然成為副產(chǎn)品了。

Fu: Good point. The paintings can't completely focus on the technology inheritance of art history and the minor details of refurbishment, but there must be a greater normal change, and a natural change in the problem awareness and aesthetic concepts. When we really went to the end, we can discover that the problems important before may not be really that important. The language suddenly becomes a by-product.

王：中西藝術(shù)在不同階段的境界追求上并沒(méi)有截然的差別，每種文化傳統(tǒng)里都有偉大的藝術(shù)家在做著破繭而出的努力。那些能在形式、技術(shù)、趣味上做出大的突破的藝術(shù)家,必然在思想上是無(wú)法被藝術(shù)這個(gè)門(mén)類(lèi)所局限或束縛的。

Wang: There is no complete difference in the pursuit of realm between Chinese and Western art at different stages. There are great artists in each cultural tradition who are making efforts to emerge from the cocoon.Those artists who can make great breakthroughs in form, technique, and taste must not be confined or constrained by the category of art in their mind.

其實(shí)文人畫(huà)是一種狀態(tài),但文人卻不是一個(gè)好詞。相比而言，今天的職業(yè)畫(huà)家當(dāng)然在趣昧方面更不敏感,他們幾乎不思考問(wèn)題。

In fact, literati painting is a state, but literati is not a good word. In contrast, today's professional painters are certainly less sensitive to the taste, and they hardly think about any problem.

付：那換個(gè)什么詞好呢?

Fu: What word should I change?

王：我只是個(gè)人的看法,因?yàn)檫@些年一直在講古代繪畫(huà),也在想這個(gè)問(wèn)題,文人畫(huà)和文人究竟意昧著什么。

Wang: It is just my own opinion. As I have been talking about the ancient paintings all these years, and I am also thinking about this question, i.e. what does literati painting and literati mean on earth?

付：是不是藝術(shù)高度成熟之后的發(fā)展趨勢(shì)呢，我一開(kāi)始也是覺(jué)得職業(yè)藝術(shù)家目前被資本和市場(chǎng)所壓制,容易過(guò)分職業(yè)化了,反而失去了對(duì)更加存粹的本源探尋的驅(qū)力，反思得不夠清楚,就那么持續(xù)下去了。而文人畫(huà)畫(huà)的這種現(xiàn)象,可能更接近藝術(shù)本來(lái)的初衷。

Fu: Is it the development trend after the art is highly mature? At the beginning, I felt that the professional artists are currently suppressed by the capital and the market, and they are easily over-professional. They lose their drive to explore more pure origins, and don’t reflect clearly enough.The phenomenon of literati painting may be closer to the original intention of art.

王：藝術(shù)史是承認(rèn)語(yǔ)言并且尤其承認(rèn)語(yǔ)言的,而能提供藝術(shù)語(yǔ)言的真正活力者,怡恰來(lái)自不受專業(yè)局限的那些具有更豐沛深厚思想的藝術(shù)家,盡管他們可能并不一定會(huì)在其他領(lǐng)域作出與藝術(shù)領(lǐng)域同樣突出的成就，但藝術(shù)的真正滋養(yǎng)恰恰在其他領(lǐng)域。當(dāng)然這是說(shuō)那些偉大的人。

Wang: The art history recognizes the language and especially the language, and those who can provide the real vitality of artistic language are those artists who are not limited by their professionalism and have more profound ideas. Although they may not necessarily make the same outstanding achievements as art in other fields, the real nourishment of art is precisely in other fields. Of course this refers to the great people.

付：更像是一次逃逸,思想的承載也好,自我的疏解也好,為自已畫(huà),懂的建立體系,而且又有太多要表達(dá)的東西積壓。

Fu: It’s more like an escape. Whether a carrying of thoughts or self-relaxation, they draw for themselves, build a system and have a backlog of things to express.

王：過(guò)去不理解何以文人畫(huà)家常說(shuō)職業(yè)畫(huà)家胸中少千卷書(shū),所以畫(huà)不好。后來(lái)明白了,書(shū),不是為了點(diǎn)綴自己有文化,而是抵達(dá)精微的趣味并對(duì)藝術(shù)史有整體理解與把握的最重要的舟楫。

Wang: In the past, I didn't understand why literati painters often said that they couldn’t paint well because of lacking thousands of books in their minds. Later, I realized that reading books is not to embellish my knowledge, but to get a subtle taste, and it is the most important means to have an overall understanding and grasp of art history.

付：藝術(shù)的最大功用就是他的無(wú)為而為,不成而成,所有做作的為了創(chuàng)新而創(chuàng)新的狀態(tài)，無(wú)疑是如同“阿基里斯與龜”那個(gè)電影中的荒誕,而基于強(qiáng)大的思想體系的流溢和噴涌,才是時(shí)代凝結(jié)出來(lái)的創(chuàng)造力的精華。

Fu: The greatest function of art is nothing but for availability. All the artificial states of innovation are undoubtedly like the absurdity in the movie "Achilles and the Tortoise". However, the overflowing and gushing which is based on a powerful thought system is just the essence of creativity condensed by the times.

參展藝術(shù)家

王鵬杰 I Wang Pengjie

生于 1987 年，藝術(shù)家、學(xué)者。四川美術(shù)學(xué)院造型藝術(shù)學(xué)院教師。從事藝術(shù)創(chuàng)作、藝術(shù)批評(píng)、藝術(shù)史及理論研究、藝術(shù)教育及策展工作。1987 年生于中國(guó)遼寧省海城市。2010 年畢業(yè)于四川美術(shù)學(xué)院油畫(huà)系，2013年獲碩士學(xué)位。2018年畢業(yè)于清華大學(xué)美術(shù)學(xué)院藝術(shù)史論系，獲藝術(shù)學(xué)博士學(xué)位，研究方向：現(xiàn)當(dāng)代藝術(shù)理論及批評(píng)實(shí)踐、中國(guó)現(xiàn)代藝術(shù)史及思想史、繪畫(huà)史及繪畫(huà)理論。

康學(xué)儒 I Kang Xueru

2008年畢業(yè)于四川美術(shù)學(xué)院。現(xiàn)主要生活、工作在北京。2008至2010年擔(dān)任數(shù)本雜志的編輯工作，2011至2016年擔(dān)任《藝術(shù)時(shí)代》雜志主編。2013年與他人共同創(chuàng)建“我們說(shuō)要有空間于是就有了空間”。2015 年創(chuàng)建“驚奇的房間”藝術(shù)機(jī)構(gòu)。

劉文炯 I Liu Wenjiong

70 后，生于河北，現(xiàn)工作、生活于北京。中央美術(shù)學(xué)院博士，北京大學(xué)歷史學(xué)系博士后。

齊鵬 I Qi Peng

1974年生于安徽省合肥市。1997年畢業(yè)于中國(guó)戲曲學(xué)院舞臺(tái)美術(shù)系，獲文學(xué)學(xué)士學(xué)位。2003年畢業(yè)于中央美術(shù)學(xué)院美術(shù)史系，獲美術(shù)學(xué)碩士學(xué)位。2007年畢業(yè)于中央美術(shù)學(xué)院美術(shù)史系，獲美術(shù)學(xué)博士學(xué)位。2007年到 2017 年工作于中央美術(shù)學(xué)院美術(shù)館。2017年至今工作于中央美術(shù)學(xué)院研究生院，壁畫(huà)系碩士生導(dǎo)師，副研究員。

姜俊 I Jiang Jun

藝術(shù)史家、策展人、藝術(shù)評(píng)論家，鳳凰藝術(shù)專欄作家生活和工作于上海和杭州。自從2015年開(kāi)始在中國(guó)美術(shù)學(xué)院，以及其他美術(shù)學(xué)院，如上海美術(shù)學(xué)院、明斯特藝術(shù)學(xué)院教授藝術(shù)史和藝術(shù)理論。從2019年6月起他作為講師和研究員職教于上海視覺(jué)藝術(shù)學(xué)院數(shù)字媒體專業(yè)。他是國(guó)際公共藝術(shù)協(xié)會(huì)(IPA)研究員、中國(guó)工業(yè)設(shè)計(jì)協(xié)會(huì)信息與交互設(shè)計(jì)專業(yè)委員會(huì)(IIDC)會(huì)員、上海虹橋美術(shù)館學(xué)術(shù)委員。2020 年起兼職擔(dān)任幾點(diǎn)當(dāng)代藝術(shù)中心策展人和研究員。

蔡萌 I Cai Meng

生于 1978 年，美術(shù)學(xué)博士，中央美術(shù)學(xué)院美術(shù)館學(xué)術(shù)部副主任，副研究員，策展人。曾供職于中國(guó)藝術(shù)研究院和廣東美術(shù)館。其碩士和博士論文均以 1976 年以來(lái)的中國(guó)當(dāng)代攝影為研究方向，從美術(shù)史研究的視角與方法出發(fā)，探討中國(guó)當(dāng)代攝影發(fā)展演變的內(nèi)部邏輯及其對(duì)應(yīng)的藝術(shù)思潮與外部文化問(wèn)題。